The Last Supper
This morning on the train in to work, it was really laid on my heart to dredge up some old info on the last supper.
Following is a truncated conversation from this thread http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=112142
A question is asked:
I need some help here. When Jesus is talking about who is going to betray Him all four Gospels tell it differently, especially between Mathew and John. In Mathew it sounds like Judas dipped his own bread, but in John it sounds like Jesus dipped the bread.
The response (1):
Often times they would eat out of a common bowl, or there would be several bowls around the table where two people would share a bowl.
Matthew, Mark & Luke all describe that. What we see here is that Judas and Jesus shared the same bowl. Judas "dipped his hand" in the same bowl as Jesus during the supper.
Matthew 26:23
And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
Mark 14:18
While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me."
Luke 22:21
But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.
In John, however, we see something a little different. Here Jesus actually dips a piece of bread into the bowl and hands it to Judas. This does not, however, contradict the other verses
John 13:26
Jesus then answered, "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas
==
These are all complimentary pictures of the whole panorama. We also need to keep clear in our minds when picturing this scene (and this is strictly my opinion), that the disciples were still kept in the dark about a lot of what was going on.
You will notice that in Mark & Luke, this whole issue seems to be no big thing at all.
In Mark, after making the announcement, the gospel goes on to Jesus blessing of the bread and the cup. The major bombshell that one of the 12 is going to betray Him is pretty much dropped.
In Luke, the disciples start discussing amongst themselves who it may be only to get sidetracked into debating who among them is the most important.
In Matthew, we see something a little different. Here Judas himself asks Jesus "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" and Jesus says to him "You have said it yourself." (Matt 26:25) But after that, again Jesus goes into the blessing of the bread and the cup.
In John, we see another angle altogether. Here, Jesus dips the bread and gives it to Judas, and tells him to go and do what he has to do. The rest of the disciples do not understand and think Judas has been instructed to go and purchase more supplies for the feast.
==
So perhaps an entire timeline of the event might look like this.
The Passover feast begins. The seating arrangement has Judas sitting with Jesus and sharing His bowl.
Jesus announces that one of the disciples will betray him.
All of the disciples ask themselves if it could be them, and ask Jesus if it could be them. While all of this is going on, Judas asks Jesus if it is him, and Jesus responds (to Judas) "You have said it yourself."
The other disciples began to discuss amongst themselves, and in the process, start to get sidetracked into who is more important. Judas, meanwhile is contemplating the whole "You have said it yourself." statement (I myself would be freaking out at this point).
Jesus than says "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." and then He gave the bread to Judas.
--This little part may not have been for all the disciples, but remember that John is supposedly the "disciple whom Jesus loved", and remember that John was leaning up against Jesus at this time, so he probably heard this particular exchange and included it in his gospel.
Now Jesus says to Judas - go and do what you have to do. This is probably while the other disciples are still "discussing" who is the most important.
As the other disciples see Judas go, it kind of brings them out of their discussion ("gee, where's Judas going? Well, maybe he has to get more wine.") and Jesus begans the blessing of the bread and the wine.
==
This is just the way I read this particular event. I'm sure there are others out there who can add to it or correct me where I may have slipped up.
The response (2):
For context we need to look at the passages John 13:21-30.
We can gather many things from these passages. First, the entire time Judas must have been putting on an act of love and loyalty which deceived everyone except Jesus. There-in lies a warning….By our actions we may deceive men, but there is no hiding from the perfect Jesus.
Contrary to portraits and portrayals of the last supper, the Jews did not sit at tables, they reclined. Most were low solid blocks with pillows (of sorts) arranged around it. These tables were shaped in the form of a “U” and the host reclined in the center. Reclining on the left side, the right hand was free to deal with the meal. Sitting this way, a man’s head was oftentimes resting on the breast of the person to one’s immediate left.
The place just left of the host was held for the place of highest honor. It is written that Jesus spoke to Judas without the knowledge of others. This would indicate that Judas sat directly to the left of Jesus, and Jesus head was perhaps in his breast for a time.
Also, for the host to offer the guest a small portion from the dish was a sign of special friendship. See Ruth 2:14. Herein lies the tragedy…..for Jesus again and again appealed to the dark heart, and over and over Judas remained unmoved.
Then read the profound last sentence in verse 30…..Judas went out - and it was night. John has such a grasp of language that it transcends even the translation into English if one looks hard enough. Of course it was night. Why should we care? There is another night that John is speaking. It is always night when a man listens to the call of evil rather than good. It is always night when hate puts out the light of love. It is inevitably night when a man turns his back on Jesus. If we submit ourselves to Christ we walk in the light; if we turn our back on him we walk in the darkness. The way of light and of dark are set before us – God give us the wisdom to choose the light.
=======
There were other responses and a lot of other good info, but the thread sort of runs off in another tangent. I just wanted to post the immediately relevant “stuff” with regard to the synchronization of the gospels.
Following is a truncated conversation from this thread http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=112142
A question is asked:
I need some help here. When Jesus is talking about who is going to betray Him all four Gospels tell it differently, especially between Mathew and John. In Mathew it sounds like Judas dipped his own bread, but in John it sounds like Jesus dipped the bread.
The response (1):
Often times they would eat out of a common bowl, or there would be several bowls around the table where two people would share a bowl.
Matthew, Mark & Luke all describe that. What we see here is that Judas and Jesus shared the same bowl. Judas "dipped his hand" in the same bowl as Jesus during the supper.
Matthew 26:23
And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
Mark 14:18
While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me."
Luke 22:21
But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.
In John, however, we see something a little different. Here Jesus actually dips a piece of bread into the bowl and hands it to Judas. This does not, however, contradict the other verses
John 13:26
Jesus then answered, "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas
==
These are all complimentary pictures of the whole panorama. We also need to keep clear in our minds when picturing this scene (and this is strictly my opinion), that the disciples were still kept in the dark about a lot of what was going on.
You will notice that in Mark & Luke, this whole issue seems to be no big thing at all.
In Mark, after making the announcement, the gospel goes on to Jesus blessing of the bread and the cup. The major bombshell that one of the 12 is going to betray Him is pretty much dropped.
In Luke, the disciples start discussing amongst themselves who it may be only to get sidetracked into debating who among them is the most important.
In Matthew, we see something a little different. Here Judas himself asks Jesus "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" and Jesus says to him "You have said it yourself." (Matt 26:25) But after that, again Jesus goes into the blessing of the bread and the cup.
In John, we see another angle altogether. Here, Jesus dips the bread and gives it to Judas, and tells him to go and do what he has to do. The rest of the disciples do not understand and think Judas has been instructed to go and purchase more supplies for the feast.
==
So perhaps an entire timeline of the event might look like this.
The Passover feast begins. The seating arrangement has Judas sitting with Jesus and sharing His bowl.
Jesus announces that one of the disciples will betray him.
All of the disciples ask themselves if it could be them, and ask Jesus if it could be them. While all of this is going on, Judas asks Jesus if it is him, and Jesus responds (to Judas) "You have said it yourself."
The other disciples began to discuss amongst themselves, and in the process, start to get sidetracked into who is more important. Judas, meanwhile is contemplating the whole "You have said it yourself." statement (I myself would be freaking out at this point).
Jesus than says "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." and then He gave the bread to Judas.
--This little part may not have been for all the disciples, but remember that John is supposedly the "disciple whom Jesus loved", and remember that John was leaning up against Jesus at this time, so he probably heard this particular exchange and included it in his gospel.
Now Jesus says to Judas - go and do what you have to do. This is probably while the other disciples are still "discussing" who is the most important.
As the other disciples see Judas go, it kind of brings them out of their discussion ("gee, where's Judas going? Well, maybe he has to get more wine.") and Jesus begans the blessing of the bread and the wine.
==
This is just the way I read this particular event. I'm sure there are others out there who can add to it or correct me where I may have slipped up.
The response (2):
For context we need to look at the passages John 13:21-30.
We can gather many things from these passages. First, the entire time Judas must have been putting on an act of love and loyalty which deceived everyone except Jesus. There-in lies a warning….By our actions we may deceive men, but there is no hiding from the perfect Jesus.
Contrary to portraits and portrayals of the last supper, the Jews did not sit at tables, they reclined. Most were low solid blocks with pillows (of sorts) arranged around it. These tables were shaped in the form of a “U” and the host reclined in the center. Reclining on the left side, the right hand was free to deal with the meal. Sitting this way, a man’s head was oftentimes resting on the breast of the person to one’s immediate left.
The place just left of the host was held for the place of highest honor. It is written that Jesus spoke to Judas without the knowledge of others. This would indicate that Judas sat directly to the left of Jesus, and Jesus head was perhaps in his breast for a time.
Also, for the host to offer the guest a small portion from the dish was a sign of special friendship. See Ruth 2:14. Herein lies the tragedy…..for Jesus again and again appealed to the dark heart, and over and over Judas remained unmoved.
Then read the profound last sentence in verse 30…..Judas went out - and it was night. John has such a grasp of language that it transcends even the translation into English if one looks hard enough. Of course it was night. Why should we care? There is another night that John is speaking. It is always night when a man listens to the call of evil rather than good. It is always night when hate puts out the light of love. It is inevitably night when a man turns his back on Jesus. If we submit ourselves to Christ we walk in the light; if we turn our back on him we walk in the darkness. The way of light and of dark are set before us – God give us the wisdom to choose the light.
=======
There were other responses and a lot of other good info, but the thread sort of runs off in another tangent. I just wanted to post the immediately relevant “stuff” with regard to the synchronization of the gospels.
posted by MarkD at 12:11 PM
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